Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

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Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby millerdan2009 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:05 pm

Hi, all,

When the nominations for the 2015 Hugo Awards came out, fans discovered that a cadre of disgruntled readers of SF/F had nominated a set of writers, editors, and artists as a slate. Calling themselves the Rabid Puppies and/or the Sad Puppies--depending upon which cadre did the nominating--this act sent much of fandom, on all sides of the political spectrum, into a roil. What's the deal with the Sad and Rabid Puppies, and what will their impact be on Worldcons and the Hugos to come? Do their claims have any validity, or are they a bunch of Gamergate sympathizers trying to reverse the strides SF/F has made in recent memory? And what about those slate nominees who were nominated unwittingly, or as tokens? Come discuss this issue with Arisia, as we explore a development in SF fandom that will affect it for years to come.

{Note: I know where my sentiments lie vis-a-vis the Puppies--which I won't go into here--but given the consternation this has engendered on the Internet and in mainstream media, I believe it probably warrants discussion, particularly as the results will have been seen as of January. That being said, a strong moderator would be required for this panel, to prevent devolution.}

Thanks,

Danny
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby Gecko » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:07 pm

And folks on both side of the issue, as in two puppies and two anti-puppy folks. It's too easy for a panel to be dominated by one smug side.

Can we invite Larry Correia, Sarah Hoyt or other Sad Puppy to join us?
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby awexelblat » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:22 pm

As with Gamergate I think this is an important issue to discuss but framing it as a standard pro/con panel risks losing sight of the issues. Are you intending to focus on the behavior of the factions, the Hugos (and voting), or something else?
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby millerdan2009 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:41 pm

Hi, all,

Now that Alan brought it up, I've thought about my intent in posting this idea initially, and I tend to agree that a simple pro/con framework for the panel gives the entire subject short shrift, and that any panel on the various Puppies and the Hugos might best be framed similarly to the GamerGate panels from Arisia 2015. Depth and nuance of the issue are key—which a simple pro/con presentation leaves wanting—and I guess I wanted the panel to discuss larger issues at play. More than that, I need to think about, at least vis-à-vis my own perspective on such a panel, but at least there's more direction to such a panel now.

Thanks,

Danny
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby Gecko » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:29 pm

The problem is that 'framing' the debate in the way you're suggesting may turn it into the two minutes daily hate against the doubleplus ungood wrongfen. We will need diverse voices for the panel- that means both sides.
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby sydtol1 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:02 pm

This panel - which should happen, absolutely - needs voices from every side, who will make every effort to be reasonable and respectful of everyone else.

But more importantly, it will need an iron moderator who does not actually take part in any of the inevitable arguing and keeps things on-topic and... not necessarily even-handed, because the conversation may naturally turn in one direction or another, but at the very least as impartial as someone can be, given the "hot-buttonness" of the topic at hand. And they will need to have total control of the room, because it would take no imagination whatsoever for an audience to turn this panel into total chaos.
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby awexelblat » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:14 pm

I agree with syd's point that there are many sides. For example:
- reform the Hugos
- abolish the Hugos
- Vote NO AWARD above any slate
- Vote for the candidate you feel is best regardless of how they got on the ballot
- Vote only for worthy candidates, and NO AWARD everything else

All of those focus on the Hugos-qua-Hugos. Then there's:

- the Hugos don't represent fandom
- Worldcon doesn't represent fandom
- the people trying to hijack the awards don't represent fandom

Panels in the first group are panels about the Hugos (and maybe about the WSFS and such). Panels addressing the second group are more panels about fandom and the nature of whatever-it-is that we are. Or you could have a panel about lessons learned, and the nature of popularity and so on. All of these are ways to frame a panel on the topic that goes beyond simple pro/con.

This was my thinking behind the original question of "what is the focus of this panel?"
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby millerdan2009 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:52 pm

Hi, all,

I could actually go both ways vis-à-vis the two sets of framing that Alan brought up in his most recent post. On the one hand, a panel on the Puppies, etc. focusing on the "Hugos-qua-Hugos" would theoretically—at least as I see it—be more focused in its approach, and would center on more immediate issues, for lack of better terminology, pertaining to fandom, at least here; it would also, I think, be less likely to result in armed conflict between Arisians.

That being said, the more I think about it, the more I had in mind the second framing that Alan brought up, namely the one on the nature of fandom and so forth. Yes, it has more potential to go off the rails vis-à-vis bad feeling and tension, but I think it's a more important issue, along the lines of the GamerGate panel(s) from last Arisia.

Add to all this, though—at the risk of causing tension in these online forums—that John Scalzi, as one Guest of Honor at Arisia, may have something to say on the framework of such a panel. From what I've read of his commentary on the varying subjects at play here, I tend to think he might have more to say—or want to say more—on the subject of fandom than on the strictly-limited subject of the Hugos-qua-Hugos, but I certainly don't want to put words in Mr. Scalzi's mouth, and presuppose his wants and desires vis-à-vis such a panel.

Thanks,

Danny
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby Shadesong » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:22 am

We aren't going to run this panel, because a) as Wex pointed out, it is actually about sixteen topics in one and therefore cannot be discussed in any coherent fashion in an hour and fifteen minutes (the core of "who are they?" alone is complex and lengthy enough that a recap would take most of the panel's time, before we even got to their specific actions in 2015), and b) as everyone seems to realize, it's pretty much guaranteed to be an enormous drama explosion that accomplishes nothing productive and gives everyone a really bad day.

So as one of your track managers: I can guarantee you that this panel will not run.

Feel free to run with one of Wex's ideas, or another idea spun off from this that can actually be discussed in the time allotted.
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Re: Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards

Postby Gecko » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:03 pm

OK< how about a 'Hugos- where do we go from here?' Do the Hugos need reforming and in what direction should it go?
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